Episode 11: Loving Through This
Jazzmine and Jordan have been together for almost a decade. They’ve built a beautiful and fulfilling life in Iowa and you could say that they’re the “perfect” couple. But, there’s one thing that most people don’t know about their relationship: they’ve never had penetrative sex. While Jazzmine used to keep this secret, now she and Jordan are ready to share how they navigate chronic vulvovaginal and pelvic pain together.
Even as recently as the 1960s, American courts were declaring that a marriage without regular penetrative sex was an invalid marriage. In today’s episode, we hear how Jazzmine and Jordan have worked to redefine intimacy in their relationship and resist social and historical narratives about marriage and sex.
Follow Jazzmine:
Resources:
Unreal Women: Sex, Gender, Identity and the Lived Experience of Vulvar Pain by Amy Kaler
"If sex hurts, am I still a woman?" the subjective experience of vulvodynia in hetero-sexual women by Kathryn Ayling and Jane M. Ussher
Imperfect Intercourse: Sexual Disability, Sexual Deviance, and the History of Vaginal Pain in the Twentieth-Century United States by Hannah Srajer
Credits:
Writer: Olivia Goode
Editor: Ava Ahmadbeigi
Executive Producer: Hannah Barg
Associate Producers: Sararosa Davies and Delilah Righter
Production Assistant: Kalaisha Totty
Art: By Sami Aryel
Transcript
Sponsorship Promo:
[Enter Music - Tiny Putty]
This season is made possible by our generous sponsors: The Vagina Collective, The National Vulvodynia Association, Ohnut, and DiscovHER Health.
The Vagina Collective funds people and organizations changing how society talks about vulvovaginal pain. The National Vulvodynia Association, a patient advocacy nonprofit committed to funding research that will lead to more effective treatments for vulvodynia.
DiscovHER Health offers Healthcare, Education, and Resources that allows patients to overcome the most intimate concerns from painful intercourse to embarrassing leaks.
And Ohnut: For when sex feels too deep, Ohnut is the partner-approved, doctor-recommended solution for more comfortable sex.
[Exit Music]
[Music Enters - Lost Stage at “a lot going on”]
Noa: Jazzmine has a lot going on. She’s a doctoral student. She’s an Equity and Inclusion professional at a liberal arts college. And on the side? She’s a doula. She’s working to address health disparities within the black community.
Jazzmine’s also in love. She tied the knot with her husband Jordan in 2017.
Jazzmine: I love that people walk up to me and they're like, oh my God, Jordan is so great. And I'm like, I know I married him, duh. Like, this is mine. Don't be too excited. Right.
[Music Exits]
Noa: Jazzmine and Jordan live in Central Iowa. And in their community, a lot of people see them as this perfect Black couple: loving, happy, fun, successful.
Jazzmine: I'm working on stuff for doulas in the state. He does a lot of equity inclusion things for institutions. So we, we are seen as this power couple for a lot of people, and they've said those things to us.
The black couple thing is also a rarity here in Iowa. A lot of people have interracial relationships. So when we came to the scene, it was like, what, like black people in love and it's not an issue?
[Music Enters - Taoudella]
Noa: But there's one thing about their relationship that a lot of those people don't know.
Jazzmine: I've been with my husband for eight years and we have not had penetrative sex.
Noa: They’ve never had penetrative sex.
And that’s something Jazzmine used to feel like she had to hide. But not anymore. Now, she and Jordan are ready to talk about it.
[Music Exits]
[Music Enters - Gambrel]
Noa: This is Tight Lipped, a public conversation about a private type of pain. I'm Noa.
On this show, we talk about vulvovaginal and pelvic pain. We share stories about painful sex. And shame. And the politics surrounding these conditions that we often keep secret. We uncover why it’s so hard to get diagnosed and treated – and what we can do to change that reality. Our podcast is part of a grassroots advocacy organization, fighting for patients with these conditions to get the care they need and deserve.
Most people just assume that married, heterosexual couples are having sex. And by sex, they mean penis in vagina sex. But for so many women, transgender, and non-binary folks with chronic pelvic or vulvar pain, having that type of sex is either painful or impossible.
Jazzmine is one of those people. Today, we'll hear from Jazzmine and Jordan about how they’re redefining what marriage and sex looks like for them.
[Music Exits - one of those people].
A quick heads-up: On this episode, we briefly mention both sexual abuse and suicide, so please listen with care.
ACT I
Noa: Let’s go back way before Jazzmine met Jordan. She was only 16, but there were already signs that something was going on with her body. She had this hip pain, which she thought was related to her scoliosis. And her periods were really painful, too. So for the first time, she went to a gynecologist. The doctor took out a plastic speculum.
Jazzmine: So she tries to put it in and it just felt like a wall. And I just felt her trying to push. And I just like kicked her, kicked her right in the chest.
Noa: Jazzmine's mom was there, too.
Jazzmine: And all I can hear was them laughing. You know, they were, you know, oh, she's going to have an interesting time having sex. She's going to need a lot of alcohol on her wedding night.
Noa: After that, Jazzmine didn't go back to the gynecologist for years. And all through college, she didn't even try to have penetrative sex. Still, she knew something wasn’t right. Tampons were too uncomfortable, so she only used pads. She still had that hip pain. And she also had trouble holding her urine.
Jazzmine: I could just be walking, laughing, bending, over stretching, and I'd just pee on myself. I never knew what it meant to not carry another set of underwear and pants somewhere around me…
Noa: She had no idea what was wrong, so she just tried to deal with it on her own.
Fast forward a few years, and Jazzmine was finishing up her master's degree. She was at her job, talking about how bad the dating scene was. Her friend said, I have someone you should meet.
[Music Enters -Messy Inkwell (at ‘fast forward a few years’)]
Jazzmine: And she showed me a picture of Jordan. And it was him and his two other frat brothers. And all I could think of is, "Oh, he looks happy." Like, that's all I thought about. It wasn't even anything. Cause he was smiling so big and I'm like, "Oh, he looks like a happy black man."
Noa: When I talked to Jazzmine and Jordan, the first question I asked was, so how did you guys meet? And then they both talked nonstop for like 30 minutes. It was obvious how happy it made them to talk about the beginning of their relationship. So here's the short version.
[Music exits]
After that mutual friend planted the seeds, they met for real at a conference for professionals working in higher education. Jazzmine was networking right and left…but when it came to approaching Jordan, it was a different story.
Jazzmine: I was like, "Jazzmine, it's not even that deep, like, just go introduce yourself." So then we go to get pizza, and, I'm like, "So what do you want to do with the rest of your life?" Cause I'm just, I was that person back then.
Jordan: She just grilled me! Right?
Jazzmine: I just grilled him, yeah.
Noa: She gave him her business card, and they started chatting over Facebook messenger.
Jordan & Jazzmine: And then those talks became like (I like yous!) phone calls and things and stuff. And date nights with Netflix…
Noa: When Jazzmine got the job she'd been interviewing for, Jordan sent her an edible arrangement. Which turned out to be a really good move.
Jazzmine: Cause I looked at my dog, bless his heart, I looked at Sysco, and I was like, Jordan got me an edible arrangement. He's going to be your new daddy.
Noa: Jazzmine fell in love with Jordan's family, too.
Jazzmine: His family is amazing. In so many ways.
Jordan: First of all, my dad has never truly paid any attention to anybody that I dated. And he meets her in the first 10 minutes.
Jazzmine: I barely got in the door.
Jordan: And it's like, why are you acting like you've known her all your life?
Jazzmine: And he just reminds me of my dad. So it was like, it just clicked for like within seconds.
Noa: But, at the time, both Jazzmine and Jordan were prioritizing their careers.
Jazzmine: So we were long distance for the majority of our relationship.
Jordan: You moved to Idaho. I was living in Georgia. Then you moved to Pittsburgh...yeah, I was moving a lot.
Noa: They were almost never in the same place.
[Music Enters - Brer Rehtta]
Jazzmine: So I fell in love with his mind first 'cause we couldn't really be physical with each other. I feel Jordan is very brilliant. And he understood my overthinking. And so we just, it just felt right.
Noa: Jazzmine felt like she could really open up to Jordan. She felt comfortable with him.
[Music Exits]
But when they tried to have sex, it didn't work. Any kind of penetration was painful.
They were long-distance so much of the time that…it felt like something they could deal with. And they both thought, maybe the sex thing was a temporary problem.
Jazzmine: So when we got married, somehow we thought him, him, mostly that something would change. Like, can you imagine signing a document, being like your vagina's released to you now?
Right. Like I was thinking that that would be a thing. Cause I'm like, it has to be something maybe we're just not meant to have sex before we get married. Maybe God's punishing us. Right. Like don't sin. So I'm like, you know, hopefully we cross this, this broom, we get back home and things will be different. And it wasn't.
[Music Enters - Collecting Samples]
Noa: They tried everything they could think of.
Jazzmine: I've tried the alcohol. I've tried CBD. I've tried drugs. I've tried positions I've we tried everything under the sun.
Noa: But nothing worked. And that was really hard emotionally, for both of them. Jazzmine felt like there was something wrong with her. Like here was this fundamental thing that they couldn’t do together.
Jazzmine: Like to really think about how you can be so in tune with someone and then can't be with them? Right. Like it just, it broke me in so many different ways.
Noa: For a while, Jazzmine was in a really dark place.
[Music Exits]
Jazzmine: I have vivid memories of contemplating suicide when we were still struggling.
Noa: And she’s far from alone in that. It’s so common for people with pain like Jazzmine’s to struggle with anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. It can be really hard.
And it made Jazzmine question everything.
Something she and Jordan have talked about more recently is, if they hadn't been long distance for all those years...if they'd been physically together and not able to have sex...would they still have gotten married?
Jazzmine: And the answer would be no. I even tell him if I knew I had vaginismus before I met him, I wouldn't have been dating anybody. Like I w I actively would made that decision of not being with people. If I knew.
[Music Enters - Jumbel (at “Like I actively”)]
Noa: When I heard Jazzmine say this, I knew so many other people with vaginal pain who could relate. But why did Jazzmine, and so many others, feel like this? Why did she think, if I can’t have penetrative sex, then maybe I should just…be alone forever. So many heterosexual women with conditions like Jazzmine's feel like there is something fundamentally wrong with them. Where does that feeling come from?
[Music Exits]
ACT II
Amy Kaler: When you think about it, it is very weird...
Noa: This is Professor Amy Kaler. (KAY-LER, rhymes with Taylor)
Amy Kaler: Like of all the things that people do. There's this one act that, you know, that is the heterosexual act. And if you're not doing that, then are you really heterosexual or sexually active or whatever you want to call it.
Noa: Professor Kaler teaches in the Sociology department, at the University of Alberta. Back in 2006, she published a paper called “Unreal Women: Sex, Gender, Identity and the Lived Experience of Vulvar Pain.” And she talked to me about all the cultural, religious, and even legal narratives that position penetrative sex as SO important.
Amy Kaler: And the distress that women with vulvar pain and vulvodynia feel is, you know, is an outcome of that because there is so much weight placed on, on this thing.
Noa: Pop culture is filled with movies and tv shows and romance novels that conflate having sex with a woman's gender and sexual identity.
Amy Kaler: There's always this moment where the, the heroine, you know, has sex for the first time with the love interest, and there's all this stuff about suddenly knowing what it meant to be a woman or, or, becoming a woman or she wakes up the next morning and she thinks now I'm truly a woman.
Noa: Today, many of us realize how ridiculous this idea is – that your gender identity as a woman, forms from having penetrative sex. What about women who only have sex with other women? Or who just don’t want to have sex? Or what about trans women, or folks who are nonbinary? So much work has been done to get us to think about gender and sexuality in far more expansive and inclusive ways.
Amy Kaler: But at the level of sort of stereotype and ideas that are, are still getting promulgated, you know, decade after decade, There still is this, this conflation between being a real woman, being heterosexually active, and engaging in this, this physical mechanical act.
We also inherit legal traditions where, you know, if a man had sex with a woman, then he had certain rights over her. That was how you determined whether a marriage was a real marriage or not. It had to be consummated...
[Music Enters - Keo Keo]
Noa: The legal history Professor Kaler is referring to is both fascinating and horrifying. We were surprised to find out that even as recently as the 1950s and 60s American courts were declaring that a marriage without regular penetrative sex was an invalid marriage…and possible grounds for divorce or annulment.
In fact, according to a series of legal rulings, in order to meet the legal definition of "wife," a woman had to have the ability to be “frequently and fully” penetrated.
That’s right: legally, you had to be vaginally penetrated – on a regular basis. And the whole “frequent and full” part really mattered. For example, in a 1951 annulment case [called Donati versus Church], the judge wrote this:
[Music Exits - (at part really mattered)]
Male actor: "Although her husband was able to, and did frequently, insert the tip of his penis, this imperfect intercourse is not enough to rebut a finding of the defendant's impotence.”
Noa: If intercourse was painful and therefore infrequent, that could also be grounds for annulment. In a 1955 case [called Godfrey v. Shatwell], the judge said:
Male actor: “Sexual intercourse which is so painful and difficult to a wife that it is discontinued by the parties is not the normal and wholesome marital relation which is envisaged by the entry into marriage."
Noa: Now, you might be assuming that all of this ultimately had to do with the woman's ability to get pregnant. But in a case from 1968, the male plaintiff was able to have his marriage annulled because of his wife's vaginismus...even though she'd gotten pregnant earlier that same year. It was a "splash" pregnancy, meaning that it happened without penetration.
So clearly, procreation wasn't the only issue here. What WAS an issue, was the ability to have a very particular type of sex.
When we spoke to Jazzmine and Jordan, we told them a bit about this legal history. And asked what they thought.
Jordan: That's pretty trash, right? Like that's very trash. And, uh, and it's like, how many men are not able to keep an erection or I mean, all of the statistics that are out about not even pleasuring women and stuff in heterosex al relationships, like is that then going to be able to be used in the court case.
Noa: Jazzmine and Jordan don't subscribe to a lot of these old-fashioned ideas about marriage. If anything, having chronic pain has broadened Jazzmine’s understanding of her own gender, gender expression, and sexual identity.
Still...that doesn't mean those historic ideas have had no impact on them. When it comes to how we see ourselves, we're all influenced by the culture we live in, and the messages society sends us.
[Music Enters - Temperance]
There’s an academic article titled “If Sex Hurts, Am I Still a Woman?” by psychologists Kathryn Ayling and Jane M. Ussher. It’s published in the The Archives of Sexual Behavior. The authors interviewed women with vulvodynia. And they found that participants often saw themselves as inadequate - as partners, and as women. Because that’s the message they were getting from dominant cultural narratives.
[Music Exits]
The same article also points out that treatment for vulvar pain is often hyper-focused on “fixing” women so they can just have penetrative sex. And for a while, Jazzmine was really focused on trying anything that might “fix” her too.
Jazzmine: Hoping that this is, this is the appointment. This is the, this is the thing that they're going to do to me today that's going to fix it.
Noa: In counseling, she was told that maybe her problems with penetration were psychological. It made sense at first, because she’d experienced sexual abuse and assault as a child.
So for a while, she and Jordan both thought, okay, if Jazzmine keeps going to therapy, if she can work through all of her trauma...then maybe it'll get better.
Jordan: I was thinking a lot around like, you know, maybe the security of being like, we're committed. This is our forever, we forever are partners with each other. Right. Um, that that type of thing would be able to help or something like that.
[Music Enters - Dermalion Theme]
Noa: But being in a secure, loving relationship with Jordan didn't change anything for Jazzmine physically. And while counseling definitely helped her emotionally...she was still experiencing extreme pain if they tried penetration. And that makes sense, because penetration was not the only problem. She still had all those other symptoms too–hip pain, urinary issues, painful periods.
Eventually, Jazzmine saw a doctor who told her she has a condition called vaginismus.
Jazzmine: She did, I don't know what the assessment is called, but they, where they’re feeling around kind of gauging your tenseness and gauging your pelvic floor. And she's like, yep, you have vaginismus.
[Music exits - on a post]
Noa: There’s debate in the medical world about whether vaginismus as a diagnosis is outdated, and if it should still be used. The term “vaginismus” technically means “spasming of the vagina.” It was actually coined by none other than James Marion Sims in the 1860s. Sims described it as a complete barrier to intercourse – it was all about inadequate wives preventing male penetration. He enthusiastically recommended surgery as the cure, even when his colleagues disagreed.
It’s a descriptor diagnosis – meaning a term that describes the problem, but doesn’t explain the actual cause. And, maybe most importantly, it has a psychological association and historically was viewed as a psychosomatic condition. You may remember this story from our last episode all about the DSM.
Still, for Jazzmine and Jordan, getting any medical diagnosis was a huge relief.
Jazzmine: At least it was called something. Right?
Jordan: So, but even then I was like, Okay, well, if it's a physical thing, cool. Then does this mean stretches, working out things and stuff of that nature, right? So I was thinking, I was also having come from this space of like, this is something that can be changed or shifted or fixed.
Noa: Jazzmine started going to physical therapy. But that cost money she didn’t really have. She had to drive 40 minutes each way to get there. And while physical therapy did help with her urinary issues, it didn't seem to change anything else. She tried dilators, but…
Jazzmine: They irritate my pelvic floor. So when I use them, I should expect not to be able to walk. So we're talking about taking days off that I don't have. We're talking about, um, feeling so much physical pain that I can't do my job at work.
[Music Enters - Cold Summers - at ‘I don’t have’]
Noa: Jazzmine felt like she couldn’t keep doing this. She was worn down, exhausted. She felt like this stuff was taking over her entire life.
Jazzmine: It's just like, I'm tired of going in places and feeling like I gotta be fixed all the time. Like physical therapy, my gyno, right? Acupuncture, yoga.
Noa: Jordan saw how much she was suffering. And he also felt like... maybe this isn't worth it.
Jordan: The harm that you feel, Jazzmine, and the, the, the, again, the poking prodding and all those things are not worth it to me.
Noa: Jazzmine and Jordan realized, maybe they didn't need to keep trying to force her body to do something it didn't want to do. And she and Jordan started thinking about her symptoms and condition in a new way.
Jordan: I was like, oh, it's not about being fixed. It's a matter of like, this is what it is. Right. And then how do we navigate and live through that? How do we love through that?
[Music exits - at love through that]
Noa: They started exploring what types of intimacy actually felt good, for both of them.
Jordan: So if our intimacy doesn't involve, um, penetrative sex, can our intimacy be other things?
Right. Um, what does it mean to enjoy each other's touch and sensations in other capacities. As opposed to just penetrative sex.
[Music Enters -Grayleaf Willow]
Jazzmine: What does sex mean? What does intimacy mean? And I feel like our language has changed. We, we talk about being more intimate than we talk about sex. I don't know if you agree or disagree with that. We I'm like holding hands, touching each other. We're not always mindful and great about it because they're so tired, but, but there are moments where we're like, come sit, come sit next to me. Like, let me hold your hand.
Noa: They've reached a point where it's less about what the outside world is telling them they should be doing...and more about what works for the two of them. And that's put Jazzmine and Jordan in a much healthier place.
[Music Exits - “trying to have a baby”]
But now, they're embarking on a new chapter--they're trying to have a baby. And that's brought its own set of challenges.
ACT III
Noa: For Jazzmine and Jordan, trying to conceive is just one more thing they can't do the conventional way.
Jazzmine: Now, like trying to become a mother, I'm like, yeah, this is different too. The ways in which we have to approach this is different.
Noa: And in her work as a doula, Jazzmine gets reminded of that constantly. At first, Jordan wondered – how was that going to affect her?
[Music Enters - Warm Fingers (at “sometimes”)]
Jazzmine: When I became a doula, he was like, how do you feel about witnessing something that you may not ever experience?
Sometimes I get really upset, I get upset with people who can just have children and then they say, what are you waiting for? Right. Um, and I just let myself feel it. I let myself cry.
Noa: They’ve tried IUI, a fertility treatment where a doctor uses a catheter to insert sperm directly into the uterus. Their IUI attempts haven’t been successful so far. And when IUI doesn’t work, the next step is typically IVF.
But Jazzmine and Jordan know that IVF is a grueling, expensive, and invasive process.
Jazzmine: I told him, like, I, I truly don't know if we can't have a child through IUI that I even want to go through IVF and that, it breaks my heart, because I'm like, that means I give up, right? Like that means that I give up because at the end of the day, I'm like, I know what IVF means. And that's just another thing of like someone coming in, trying to fix me to be able to have a child. And I'm like, I don't think I'm emotionally ready for that.
[Music Exits - at (“that I want even want to go through IVF”)]
Noa: Jazzmine knows that whatever she decides, Jordan will support her, 100%. But, sometimes another part of her feels guilty. Like, maybe Jordan deserves to be with someone who can give him kids.
Jazzmine: I weaponize it towards myself of like, don't do that to him. Um, I know he won't leave me. Um, but it always is in the back of my mind, I'm like, can you, is it still too late for you to be able to have kids with another person? And he just looks at me and he's like, I'm not going to do that.
Jordan: Um, do I want children? Of course I would love to have children. I think since like five years old. Like I've thought about this. Right? I had, I've had my daughter, my first born daughter's name since I was seven. Right. Like, and so like, of course, I think.
Jazzmine: We have all of our childrens' names. Since we've been dating.
Jordan: Actually, yeah, if we, if we are able to have four children, we have all four their names and their reasons and purposes and things..
Right. But at the same time, I will not love children at the expense of Jazzmine's mental, physical, and spiritual well being, right? And that's not, yeah, that's just not, uh, that's not something I'm willing to sacrifice or risk or anything of that nature for that. So, yeah, that's kind of where I am with it.
Noa: We asked Jazzmine, how does hearing him say all that make you feel?
Jazzmine: So to be able to hear him say that, not just in this moment, but often, just lets me breathe a lot better.
Like, I feel like I can breathe. And then I'm like, okay, let's, let's go right back at it. Right.
Noa: There's this stubbornly persistent idea out there that a family equals a man and a woman, who get married, have a certain kind of sex, and boom! Babies. In some ways, we've moved so far beyond that. But at the same time, charting a different path can still feel difficult, and kind of radical. For Jazzmine and Jordan, and so many other couples, not fitting into that narrative means that they've had to really think about what marriage and family means for them.
Jazzmine: So like first thing to say is black love in general is resistance.
[Music Enters - Set The Tip Jar]
Jazzmine: So whether that's platonic attraction or romantic, just the fact of us being together is a form of resistance.
Noa: They’re imagining what their marriage could like without biological kids.
Jordan: Our union is not only about birthing, right? Um, our union is about who we are and what that us coming together. Um, choosing to walk this life with each other right it's about. And if a part of that narrative, a part of that story is children that we birth, children that we adopt, children that we just mentor and are connected to in our communities…
Noa: There are so many possibilities.
And now, Jazzmine and Jordan have also made a conscious choice to try to share their story.
[Music Exits]
Jordan: JAnd so like, I think that's radical, right? A lot of times what happens is that again, those things are kind of kept in the families, kept quiet.
But there is something amazing to just being vocal about it, to being open about these different things.
Like not saying that you just got to always put your whole life and everything on blast on every avenue. Right. But in those moments where you're like, no, this is okay to share. Right. I think that's important. That our, our narratives, our stories are super important.
[Music Enters-Crumbling Dock]
If you're out in the world and you don't feel like there's examples of the stuff that you're kind of going through, it makes it hard to figure out how you can imagine that future, imagine that possibility.
And so my hope is uh, that we see ourselves in that same imaginative and creative space and that other people are able to do so as well too.
Noa: Remember when Jazzmine said that if they hadn't been long distance at the beginning... if she'd known she had vaginismus... she wouldn't have pursued a relationship with Jordan?
[Music Exits]
Jazzmine: I've come so far since that conversation.
I hate the thought that that would be something I miss out on is to be with him. I hate the thought that I would have chosen to not experience love because of what vaginismus meant. And still means.
I love where we're at. I'm grateful for what, where we, you know, arrived at as a couple, of course I want us to continue to grow, but I'm like, I'm, I'm really happy with you. I'm really happy for who I am. I wouldn't trade any of the things that we went through because I think that has brought us here.
Could we have still got here without those things? Absolutely. But I think, I think after every storm, right, that moment of clearness where like the light comes out, the ground is still wet. But it's still beautiful. It smells, it feels beautiful. Right? It feels like possibility.
[Music Enters - As]
Jordan: So one of my favorite songs is a Stevie Wonder song called "As." um, And like in some of the different lyrics, he says like, "I'll love you until the day that night is night and night becomes the day," right. Or "until eight times eight times eight times eight is four... till dolphins flying, birds live at sea" stuff like that.
And I'm just like, yeah, like that's where I'm at.
[Music Exits - As]
Noa: Almost a year has passed since we first met with them. When we checked in recently, we learned they had their first IVF consultation. Jazzmine’s feeling more supported moving forward with IVF, especially since her doctor is validating and understanding of her pain.
[Music Enters - Thoughtless]
I’m so grateful to them for sharing their love story with us. For reminding us that a beautiful relationship doesn’t have to look any one particular way. And that when we push back against the idea that there is only one way to be physically intimate, or only one way to build a family…that’s a good and freeing thing, for everyone.
On a final note. For those of you out there struggling with a condition like Jazzmine’s, and feeling alone…she’s got a message for you.
[Music Exits]
Jazzmine: if you are listening and you're like I have vaginismus and I can't find love, like, I hope for you to know that you can, that, that somebody could be out there, whether that's a romantic relationship or a friend, that someone is going to love you or some people that are going to love you the way that you deserve.
[Music Enters - As by Stevie Wonder]
[Music Exits - As by Stevie Wonder]
[Music Enters - Home Home At Last]
CREDITS:
Thanks for listening! To join our community, sign up for our newsletter at tightlipped.org or find us on instagram.
Check out the episode page on our website to learn more about Jazzmine’s work and find articles referenced in this episode. You can also find Jazzmine @RuralBlackDoula on any social media platform.
The legal and historical research came from Hannah Srajer’s paper entitled Imperfect Intercourse, Sexual Disability, Sexual Deviance, and the History of Vaginal Pain in the 20th Century United States. We’ll share Hannah's paper and her recent presentation to the Tight Lipped community on our episode page.
This episode was written by Olivia Goode and edited by Ava Ahmadbeiji. It was executive produced by Hannah Barg with the help of Delilah Righter, Sararosa Davies, and Kalaisha Totty. We received additional support from Judah Kauffman and Sela Waisblum. This episode was fact-checked by Rachel Gross.
Our episode art this season was designed by Sami Aryal. The music you heard was from Blue Dot Sessions.
If you’d like to contribute to our work, you can make a donation on our website. We’re building a grassroots movement by and for people with chronic vulvovaginal pain and we hope you’ll join us.